[UPDATE] Clinton wants to be VP? She (and Bill) need a thorough vetting

My privileges have been restored recently, but I still miss Bob Johnson on this site. Always cogent, often contentious, whatever your opinion of his opinions, he was a credit to this site. I hope one day soon his posting privileges will also be restored. But in the meantime, with his permission, I'm reproducing his latest diary. I'm sure it will cause some discussion!! Update [2008-5-23 12:2:53 by duende]:Big crow eat: conclusion got curtailed in previous posting

BOB JOHNSON'S DIARY

Frankly, I see far more reasons why Hillary Clinton would make a poor choice as Vice President than I see in her favor:

   * She energizes the Republican fundraising machine in a year when Republicans are down and out, and not particularly overjoyed with their standard bearer, McCain.

   * The revving up of the fundraising and attack machines would help downticket Republicans at the very moment they face crushing losses.

   * She and tag-along Bill undercut Obama's core message of "change" in numerous ways.

   * The brutal campaign has produced hundreds of clips of her undercutting Obama's credentials as presidential material making her a liability on the ticket.

   * But here's the biggie: She and Bill (particularly, his post-presidential years and her campaign fundraising questions) have not been vetted and their baggage is likely to be a target-rich environment for the enemy.

Back in early March when the Clinton campaign was trotting out its phony and transparent "reasoning" for attacking Obama under the guise of "He hasn't been vetted," I wrote the following diary:

Has Hillary Clinton really been "vetted" as she so often claims?

I opened that piece with this observation:


Over and over, we have heard Hilary Clinton and her campaign surrogates claim that she has been "vetted for 15 years." Harold Ickes used those very words today.

The candidate, herself, has said:


"I've been tested. I've been vetted. I have been in the political arena in our country very intensely for 16 years. There are no surprises. There's not going to be anybody saying, `Well why didn't we think of that?' or `What, my goodness, what does that mean?'" she said. "I am going to be able to go up against any Republican who they nominate."


"No surprises?" You've been "vetted?"

Really?


Of course, the claim of Clinton and her surrogates that she has been "fully vetted over the last 16 years" is complete rubbish. In fact, none of her Democratic rivals during this primary season have touched the issues that have Republicans no doubt licking their chops at the prospect of Clinton being on the Democratic ticket.

As I noted in my March diary, the list of unexplored, juicy targets tied to the Clintons (even ignoring all the old, 1990s baggage) is a rich list, indeed:


Have any of her Democratic opponents, including Obama, sought more detailed answers from her about stories such as:

  • Norman Hsu and his bundling of money for her campaign?

  • How "dishwashers, waiters and others" poured "$1,000 and $2,000 contributions into Clinton's campaign treasury?"

  • Bill's trip to Kazakhstan with Canadian magnate, Frank Giustra, that netted Giustra $3 billion and Bill's foundation a $131 million contribution from Giustra?
  • How powerful foreign donors to Bill's presidential library, such as the Saudis, may pose a serious conflict of interest to Hillary's foreign policy actions as president?

  • How Bill's tangled ties to an investment concern of Clinton friend, Ron Burkle, and it's dealings with Dubai may yet, again, threaten to compromise Hillary Clinton's execution of foreign policy as president?

  • The fact that with all of these questionable financial dealings, the Clintons have been unwilling to release their tax returns, especially in light of Hillary Clinton claiming that the $5 million she lent the campaign was "her own money?"

  • And, finally, though we, as Democrats, don't care who Bill schtupps (and, no, none of us believe he has kept his fly zipped the last seven years), you can be damn sure the Republicans will be digging hard (no pun intended) to see just what Bill has been up to since leaving office.

So has Hillary really been vetted? Shouldn't she be fully vetted on these stories and others for no other reason than as a public service to the Democratic Party? (The same logic Camp Clinton continually throws out for its "vetting" of Obama.)

Why would Obama and the Democrats need to supply these targets to the enemy in a year where we have the upper hand on corruption in Washington? Why would Obama pick Clinton when there are a dozen or more good prospects for VP who carry far less baggage than Hillary Clinton?

I have no problem with Clinton being on the list of possible VPs. But she needs a full vetting. And that means the Clintons have to open the books on her fundraising efforts, Bill's presidential library sponsors, his "work" in other countries including Kazakhstan and any other peccadilloes that may be tucked away in the recesses of the Clinton's closet.

For the sake of the Democratic Party and our fortunes in November, Hillary and Bill Clinton need to be fully vetted.

If they don't want to share their "secrets," then Obama and company should not run the risk of putting her on the ticket.

As I concluded my diary back in March...

I am sorry. I am not taking her or her surrogates at their word that there are "no surprises" and that she has been "fully vetted."

The facts are, she has not. Certainly not to the extent she will be on these stories -- and more -- in a general election versus John McCain.

Let the "vetting" begin.

NOTE: I know Clinton and her camp (hello, Geraldine Ferraro!) have made efforts the last few weeks to drive wedges between her supporters and Obama -- ginning up resentment, talking about "white, working-class voters," etc. -- but to reward those tactics would also be a mistake. Her attempts to hold Obama and the Party hostage to her VP demand should not be honored. To do so would be the very antithesis of Obama's "change Washinton" message.



Display:


Re: Clinton wants to be VP? She (and Bill) need a (2.00 / 1)

I don't need any rec's or mojo. This is Bob Johnson's work. He does he's homework too.

Personally, I'm in two minds about this, torn between unity, Hillary's incredible tenacity, some bad memories of the campaign, and the fear that Bill in particular brings a lot of negatives. But please persuade me either way:


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:30:25 AM EST

Re: Persuade? (2.00 / 3)

You've already made up your mind.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (none / 0)

On the Veep issue? No I haven't. I've been against it, now I'm wavering. She does bring millions of voters, and a huge potential unity bounce. Bob Johnson sounds like he's totally against it though


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:36:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (2.00 / 1)

Yes, the anti-Clinton crowd has ALWAYS been against everything the Clintons have ever done. To think they have the nerve to call themselves "democrats."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (2.00 / 2)

Hold on. Read my last diary! I praised Hillary to the hilt. It was used as a source of a eulogy piece by Arianna at the Huffington post.

I loved Bill. The British Labour Party and Blair copied the Clintonian formulation for success. It worked. But it had inherent weaknesses. Too much reliance on spin, too much triangulation - but it still worked. I just thing politics needs to move on - return the grass roots and find new coalitions with a dynamic changing demographic.

Why do you feel the need to assume I hated the Clintons? I never have.

Though I've really disliked some aspects of the primary campaign


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (none / 0)

I read your last diary, and I think you and Bob Johnson are clones. Either that or he's paying you to repost his bile here.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (2.00 / 1)

Sometimes the Clintons have done things that aren't very "Democratic". That's why they get called triangulators...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (2.00 / 2)

I would bet a lot of what you call the "anti-Clinton crowd" were strong Bill Clinton supporters in the 1990's, like me.  You may find that a lot of them, like me, supported Hillary for most or all of 2007 and were persuaded to switch through one thing or another.  Obama has run a great campaign that has CHANGED MINDS.  It's awfully simple of you to suggest that there's some monolithic "anti-Clinton crowd" at work here that has been against the Clintons since the dawn of time.  


I like baked beans.
by SpideyDem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Persuade? (2.00 / 2)

Always? No. I voted for Hillary Clinton in 2000 and would've voted for Bill in '96 if I'd been a few months older.

I became anti-Clinton after seeing her in action in the senate over the past 7 years as my Senator and after even moreso after seeing the depths to which they would dig in order to get what they want during this campaign.

Do not dismiss the distrust and loathing of the Clintons as people who have simply been against them from day 1.


by Yalin on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:52:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am firmly anti-Clinton (none / 0)

That doesn't mean that I don't know good things when I see them.

His plan for getting us into and out of Afghanistan worked like a charm, for instance.

It also means that I know that Sen. Clinton has a much better personality than it seems like often on TV. Not to say that she isn't ruthless when she wants to be... but that isn't what people remember about her -- they remember her wit and charm.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Generalize much? (2.00 / 1)

Your simplistic black and white view is, quite frankly, disturbing.

One, I reserve the right to disagree with my government.

Two, I reserve the right to disagree with members of my party, that, to me, is the point of being a Democrat.

Three, I'm atheist, I have no use for a Messiah. i.e. somebody I follow without questioning their authority.


by jontabb on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton wants to be VP? She (and Bill) need a (none / 0)

Typo "his homework"

I hate misprunts!


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:33:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes indeed (2.00 / 3)

Hillary is going to make a fine President, not Veep.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:31:35 AM EST

Hm. That sounds confident! I have questions... (2.00 / 1)

  1. How would she get the nomination?
  2. How would she win the presidency?

John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have questions, too (2.00 / 3)

Why has Obama been getting trounced by 2-1 margins? Why hassn't he already declared he's the nominee if it's all wrapped up? Why hasn't he already declared he's President? LOL


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 1)

So you can't answer my questions?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:37:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 2)

Yes, by continuing her hard work.

You can't answer mine?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 1)

That's not an answer. Her hard work doesn't get her more pledged delegates. There aren't enough left for her to overcome Obama's lead.

So how does she get the nomination?

And then how does she win the Presidency?

After you answer my questions I'll answer yours.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 2)

I answered your questions. You just don't like my answer.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 1)

You did? Hard work? That doesn't make any sense. How about something akin to actual analysis. Or is that too much to ask?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (none / 0)

That's the problem with Obama supporters. They don't understand "hard work." Opponents are supposed to "give up" and "get out of the race!" Good luck using that line of BS against McCain and his Rethug attack machine.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 1)

Because,

If he did...

There would be a lot of Hillary's supporters (maybe yourself) yelling about his arrogance. LOL


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:37:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 1)

He IS arrogant, which is why he's failed to identify and win the votes of millions of voters.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's kind of sad... (none / 0)

...do you have so little faith in your candidate that you can't believe some people might have voted for her instead of against Obama?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have questions, too (2.00 / 1)

And Hillary failed in getting millions of voters because she's arrogant?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So...no answer, then. n/t. (none / 0)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When? (none / 0)

2012?


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:32:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When? (2.00 / 1)

This country's in pretty bad shape. We can't wait until 2012 for Hillary to be President. She needs to be President NOW.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:36:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When? (2.00 / 1)

Now?
2008?

How do you do that without a coup d'etat?

Oh wait...


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not gonna happen. (2.00 / 1)

President Obama or President McCain.

Take your pick.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not gonna happen. (none / 0)

If Obama's the nominee, it'll be President McCain.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You'd vote for McCain? (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for going on the record.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama can't win (none / 0)

Show me where Obama resoundly beats McCain in the Electoral College.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What do you care? (2.00 / 1)

You're voting for McCain in an Obama-McCain matchup.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What do you care? (none / 0)

Didn't think you had a shread of evidence to back up that outrageous claim.

And I'll be voting for Hillary in the General Election, thank you very much.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes indeed (none / 0)

You must be referring to 2012 or 2016?

It ain't happening this year. No doubt Obama will not gain some redneck votes, and those supporters with visceral hatreds.

But by not picking her as VP, he will do himself great service as noted in this diary entry.

He will gain some Republican and Independent votes that won't vote for her no matter what.  By my memory, at least 60% think her untrustworthy.

By the way, you can like Bill without supporting Hillary.


PUMA plants.
by jv on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No no. I heard all about this and her crazy pastor (2.00 / 1)

during the primaries. Oh wait...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:33:23 AM EST

Well if She or Bill is in negotiations (2.00 / 1)

for the VP slot then shouldn't the vetting process have already started.
It should not be to hard for the Clintons to tell their accountants to open up all of their records to the Obama campaign.
by parahammer on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:36:35 AM EST

Why (2.00 / 2)

does this diary exist? It's essentially a copy of a previous diary. It adds nothing new and is literally an exact copy of a previous diary.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:38:55 AM EST

Re: Why (none / 0)

Bob Johnson said I could post it up for him. If it's been posted by someone else I will delete it.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:42:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why (2.00 / 1)

My point was, why is this diary -- a word-for-word copy of another diary -- in existence? Just because Bob Johnson said you could post it doesn't necessarily mean it's a great idea.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

With all the time you've spent (none / 0)

complaining, you could have written a diary about...anything, really.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:53:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With all the time you've spent (2.00 / 1)

I'm not 'complaining', simply pointing out that this diary seems unnecessary. Feel free to write your own diary, by the way.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why (none / 0)

It's a good idea because the banning of Bob Johnson was a bad idea.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

because he's not allowed to post here (none / 0)

presumably, and it is a good post.

Having had accounts banned here, I can sympathize


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because he's not allowed to post here (2.00 / 1)

But it's a copy of Bob Johnson's previous post, in other words, he already posted this here.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:57:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

my bad. that IS lame. (2.00 / 2)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because he's not allowed to post here (none / 0)

No he didn't. He used to cross post regularly here and at DKOS. He always engaged with comments here and was a credit to the site...

How hard is this to understand?


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because he's not allowed to post here (2.00 / 1)

What are you talking about? You acknowledged it yourself in your own intro:

But in the meantime, with his permission, I'm reproducing his latest diary.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is your point? (none / 0)


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is your point? (none / 0)

If you still can't get it after three separate tries at trying to explain it to you, you're never going to get it.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not sure I want to get it (none / 0)


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why (2.00 / 2)

As someone who consisently disliked all of BJ's 'works' intended to destroy a Hillary candidacy, I have to ask why this diary is here when the author has been stopped from posting his 'works' here?

What's next, a repeat of his infamous "I slept with Hillary" crap?


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, emsprater! (2.00 / 1)

Nailed it.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, emsprater! (none / 0)

Yes, those kind of ad hominem nailed it...

More nails in the coffin of the Hillary campaign.

You guys don't understand. This belligerent belittling form of argument has done your candidate no favours. I have not seen or heard of one single person who thanks to the cult accusation, or Judas treason charge, has gone over to Hillary. In fact, I've met dozens - especially here - who have been put off Hillary thanks to the intolerance of her so-called supporters

Way to go guys. I think you must secretly be employed by the Obama campaign


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, emsprater! (2.00 / 1)

I think it's more likely they are secretly employed by the McCain campaign. McBloggerers, unite!


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong Candidate (2.00 / 1)

"I have not seen or heard of one single person who -- thanks to Clinton smears-- has gone over to Obama. In fact, I've met dozens - especially here - who have been put off by Obama thanks to the intolerance of his so-called supporters."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, emsprater! (none / 0)

Ah yes, supporters of a candiadte rebuking crap slung by folks like BJ as 'information' is 'belligerent belittling'.

Were you the judge who told the rape victim that she was 'asking for it' because of her attire?


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, emsprater! (none / 0)

With that irrational and irrelevant outburst, I take it back: no sane campaign would employ you.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, emsprater! (none / 0)

Yep. that ad hominem attack was helpful.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:07:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Helpful to me (none / 0)

Unlike a lot of Hillary's supporters, I ought to remember there's no dialogue here: just an immediate reversion to 'supporting Obama makes me a rapist'.

It's almost a version of Godwin's Law.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Talking of employment .... (none / 0)

Blaming Clinton supporters for standing up to those who bully them because of their support for her, and those who denigrate her personally as BJ has consistently done in the past (and probably still does in the present) is more something the other campaign would employ folks to do.

He is not 'admired by all', nor 'widely admired'.

Not even close.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking of employment .... (none / 0)

Do you two always tag-team, or is it a recent low self-esteem issue?


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (2.00 / 2)

candidate were not appropriate for this Democratic blog?

Make up your minds, Obama supporters.  This crap is worse than anything Alegre, Texas Darlin, or any other Clinton supporter posts about Obama.

Shouldn't this diary be deleted and the diarist banned, according to the Obama supporters on this site?  

Where's the outrage, Obama supporters, at a hit piece against Hillary as opposed to an uplifting diary about Obama?


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:39:34 AM EST

/s (none / 0)


by parahammer on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:42:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

All VP candidates get vetted. (2.00 / 1)

The argument around here all primary was that MyDDites were allowed to put up diary after diary of Rezko and Wright because the GOP would.

Those weren't hit pieces right?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (none / 0)

How is this a hit piece?

Bob Johnson, in case you don't know, was a regular poster here and one of the better writers, admired by all before the primary wars.

If you have issue with the substance, please feel free to disagree. You clearly haven't read my comments.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:44:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (2.00 / 2)

Dude,

For me the vetting thing doesnt really matter.  For me it is a very simple question.  Doe BO do better in the polls with HRC as VP aor not and does that mean he wins a state like OH, WV, or AR that he may lose to McCain.  And i guess maybe NM with its large Latino vote.  

I guess to me the equation is simple.  If it means we have a better chance to win then that is that.  Because IMHO 2008 could be a close as 2000 and i want to be on the winning end this time.

david


by giusd on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (none / 0)

As always David, you have a good point. These things weigh heavily. My fear is also that she will drive away independents, but it's all moot, and dependent on what Obama can offer, and what she would accept.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:53:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (none / 0)

Did you get you rec abilities back?

dg


by giusd on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (none / 0)

Yup. After that Huffington post thing. What about you?


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought (none / 0)

I am not sure I lost it i think it is a govermental computer firewall issue.  All my computers have his firewall since it is put in with the operating system so i am out of luck.

Still strong work.

david


by giusd on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

can she step down immediately thereafter? (none / 0)

... or agree to undergo personality modification so that she can more easily work on Obama's team?

(I do remember hwat she did to gore...heh)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (2.00 / 1)

I agree completely, but the question isn't necessarily about how they poll now, but whether there is reason to believe that they will not poll as well in November.  If people just shrug these things off, then there is no problem.


by rfahey22 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (2.00 / 1)

He was never 'admired by all'.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:56:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (none / 0)

OK - 'admired by many' - including many Hillary supporters.

Do you remember, once upon a time, thousands of blog hours ago, when the world wasn't split into Hillary Supporters/Obama Supporters? I know. It must seem like a dream. People held a variety of opinions - it wasn't a binary split an either/or

And FYI I still read the diarists of prominent Hillary supporters without a need to discredit them on some kind of temporary primary driven ideological ground.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok, BOB. We get it, sheesh. nt (2.00 / 1)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought negative hit pieces on a Democratic (2.00 / 2)

Actually, it's not worse, as I'm sure you know (diaries by linfar, SusanHu, and even TexasDarlin come to mind), and it raises legitimate questions.  Do the potential negatives of a joint ticket outweigh the positives?  If Obama has to defend himself against the BS charges about Wright, Ayers, Rezko, etc., why would you expect Clinton not to have to weather questions re: the above, in the GE if not beforehand?  How would she stand up to those questions, and could a joint ticket weather both sets of alleged scandals at the same time?


by rfahey22 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bob Johnson (2.00 / 2)

is so biased, and anti-Hillary, he needs a thorough vetting. An unremarkably dubious dKos diary star.


by phoenixdreamz on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:42:37 AM EST

SpidetDem, knock off the ratings abuse (none / 0)

If you love Bob and dKos tactics so much, stay there. This site makes an honest effort to rise above that type of thing.


by phoenixdreamz on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SpidetDem, knock off the ratings abuse (none / 0)

WOW, you frikkin' hypocrite! The numerous ONES you've tagged me with are what?  An anomoly?  Christ.


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SpidetDem, knock off the ratings abuse (none / 0)

Julie, stop being so agressively bullyish. You tagged me with - count em - 9 TR's & HR's within the span of about 2 hours because you objected to my mentioning the electoral-vote.org site, all of which were perfectly appropriate comments. I also went back and reviewed your recommends, and found that you continually tag other Hillary supporters the same way, while uprating clearly inappropriate comments by Obama supporters. You use the ratings system as a weapon.

Stop the personal attacks against me and others immediately, and in the interest of civility, learn how to address those of us who don't happen to suport your candidate in a mature and respectful manner, thank you.


by phoenixdreamz on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SpidetDem, knock off the ratings abuse (none / 0)

You are completely mischaracterizing what when down madame, so cut the crap. You even tried to get my priveleges taken away.  NOT COOL, tattletale.  I fully admit that I downrated your obnoxious posts in retaliation to your downrating of at least THIRTEEN of mine - so yeah, I stooped to your level... but I'll be damned if I'll ignore your chiding of someone else downrating when you ROUTINELY do it to anyone who's NOT pro-Clinton. What a disingenuous hypocrit!  Sheesh!  


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SpidetDem, knock off the ratings abuse (none / 0)

Here is the 1st comment of mine you Troll Rated inappropriately:

"My problem has been her poor campaigning which I'm afraid would follow her into the General."

Your problem with Hillary in that regard is an erroneously perceived one by you.

Every proven, credible, well regarded electoral vote projection group has Clinton beating McCain, and McCain beating Obama.

by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:49:44 AM EST

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/5/23/1 12846/306/76

I didn't even know you existed until then. Your TR puzzled me, which prompted me to look back in your history where I noticed a pattern of using the ratings system as a weapon against Hillary supporters, and as a means to uprate even the most vile of comments by Obama supporters. I then started reading through your comments, and handed out a few well deserved ones of my own, whereupon you deluged me with more, and so on.

Your anger and agressive nature are your issues, and I'd appreciate you not trying to make them mine. Have a nice weekend.


by phoenixdreamz on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SpidetDem, knock off the ratings abuse (none / 0)

By the way - just caught you again - uprating this post from DiamondJim below:

Re: Clinton wants to be VP? She (and Bill) need a (1.50 / 2)

shut up with "vetting" of Bill and Hill. They are not the ones with racist pastors who hate America and white people, who are the vast majority of Americans.

This after suggesting I uprate "inappropriate" posts. So again, don't tell ME or ANYONE how to behave.  You need to keep both eyes in the mirror.  I'll bet you used to get your lunchbox stolen in grade school.  Geez.


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps Duende can vett himself, err, I mean Bob (2.00 / 1)


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps Duende can vett himself, err, I mean B (none / 0)

I'm not Bob - check my diaries out.

And you know what, as far as I know, neither of us are running for elected office.

Ad hominem reference=FAILED ARGUMENT


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton wants to be VP? She (and Bill) need a (1.50 / 2)

shut up with "vetting" of Bill and Hill. They are not the ones with racist pastors who hate America and white people, who are the vast majority of Americans. If it weren't for Bill's remaking of the party image, away from big government spending, welfare, and being soft on crime, Obama would never be running. He brought our electoral college average up from 113 from 1968-1988 to 260 in from 2000-2004, and even higher during his victories. I don't think Obama/Clinton would work because I don't have faith in America to vote for both a black AND a woman, only either or. But stop with this anti-Clinton diaries. it is time to honour the Clintons. If you can't do that, get out of the party. We could still be losing as bad as Dukakis, Mondale, and McGovern if not for his Greatness.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:45:18 AM EST

Funny stuff thanks. eom (1.00 / 0)

 


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:50:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton wants to be VP? She (and Bill) need a (none / 0)

I honoured Hillary in my last diary. It was used as a source of a eulogy piece by Arianna at the Huffington post.

And I loved Bill. You're dead right about his successes.

But to repeat myself. The British Labour Party and Blair copied the Clintonian formulation for success. It worked. But it had inherent weaknesses. Too much reliance on spin, too much triangulation - but it still worked.

But times have changed. Politics needs to move on - return the grass roots and find new coalitions with a  changing population.

You can't revisit the past. And while they should be honoured, they should also be vetted if Hillary really wants to be veep.

I'm torn on that possibility, and see many pro's and con's. But the biggest negative is the association with the past.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

All hail! (2.00 / 1)

Wow.

Greatness with a capital "G" no less.

You must really like him.


by emptythreatsfarm on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton called such reports UNTRUE (none / 0)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_o n_el_pr/clinton_4
Asked if her campaign had any discussions with the Obama campaign about her possibly bowing out in exchange for the vice president slot, Clinton said:
"It is flatly untrue and it is not anything I'm entertaining. It is nothing I have planned and it is nothing I am prepared to engage in. I am still vigorously campaigning."
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:32:25 PM EST

Re: Clinton called such reports UNTRUE (none / 0)

Well, then we're both happy.

Unusual moment. Let's enjoy.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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